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It's not just Readercon and it's not only sexual harassment and the sexism that creates the environment for it. It's not just men in sf&f/nerd/geek spaces and the casual acceptance of sexual harassment that has made those spaces uncomfortable for me, and makes staying at home with the cats and talking with my friends online the better social option. Earlier this summer, I went to a local meet up for geek women, and "geek" here does seem to mean "fandom". It was a nice enough group, the organizer was fun, and I wanted to go again.
Then a couple of weeks ago, the organizer, who appears to be white (as did all the group at the meetup I attended, though there are a few women of color on the meetup list who weren't in attendance) made a racist and ableist comment meant to be a joke on the group mailing list/message board. And I've been debating whether to say something, which my hunch says will not be well received, or if I should just save the energy and walk away from the group, which would be the easier thing to do. I already skipped the last meet up.
I decided to give sociability and communicating about my discomfort with the racist/ableist comment a go, though I did focus more on the racist part of it. Below is the email I sent the organizer yesterday afternoon. I took a note from Jay Smooth and decided to leave out the "r'" word. If you think there's a gentler way I could have gotten my point across, and want to share to help me in future situations, please let me know. I've been in this position many times in the past in plenty of places and will be in it again many times in the future. And I don't always have the choice to stay home with the cats when it's not an optional social space like fandom, but instead a place of employment, for instance. So here's what I sent her, sans greeting, quote of the comment, and closure:
I really like you and your sense of fun, but I'm totally squicked out by this kind of making fun of real groups of people and it's turning me off from wanting to be in this group. I know you don't mean any harm, but it still makes me uncomfortable, and I may not be the only one. If the group was more diverse, we might be able to develop a language for trading humor from our own ethnicities, but that does take a lot of time and comfort to develop, and may not be possible with a group that has a shifting membership. I don't think it's a good idea to assume that comfort level from the get go--it usually prevents a group from getting more diverse and restricts a group to a white majority--I've seen this happen a lot--and I don't think that's what you're aiming for at all. Does that make sense? There really is so much else we can joke about being human that doesn't hit on ethnicity or disability.
I suspect the line might have been an inside reference to some bad movie, but this email list is not restricted to the people who saw it, and we just might not all be comfortable with the line in or out of context if we did see it. I'd like to stay and know my comfort level mattered here. I wish there was a shorter way to say this. I decided to try talking about this rather than just fade away without trying, and hope you'll understand.
I took out of the email a part where I talked about my own identity and dealing with racism because the above was long enough, it's complicated, and I'm not sure it would have helped. Making an email too long can be burdensome and make it less well received. Yeah, I'm always the editor. I'll let you know whether or not I get a reply and whether it goes well or not.
Lastly, what is it with white people who aren't white supremacists saying stupid shit that achieves the same result white supremacists are aiming for? Because it makes it hard to tell the difference sometimes.
If your sf/f con has a mostly white attendance, you can rest assured a lot of shit like this has been going on; i.e., what I'm dealing with here applies to every sf/f con I know of or there would be more people of color attending, and this is the mild end on the racial harassment spectrum. And white people really need to expend a couple of brain cells and come up with humor that does not rely on a lazy application of stereotypes of people who are not exactly like them or just serves to remind people standing in the corner already just how marginal they are in the larger group. It's not all that different from what women of all colors have been asking men of all colors to do as part of curbing cultures of sexual harassment.
Addendum: And I just got my answer tonight:
You've been removed from Girls Geek Night Out (GGNO).
And she closed the group's membership to new members, leaving me a note:
Sorry - this group is closing down. The meetup.com world is just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO.
*watches the circling wagons of white women* OK then! There ya go.
Then a couple of weeks ago, the organizer, who appears to be white (as did all the group at the meetup I attended, though there are a few women of color on the meetup list who weren't in attendance) made a racist and ableist comment meant to be a joke on the group mailing list/message board. And I've been debating whether to say something, which my hunch says will not be well received, or if I should just save the energy and walk away from the group, which would be the easier thing to do. I already skipped the last meet up.
I decided to give sociability and communicating about my discomfort with the racist/ableist comment a go, though I did focus more on the racist part of it. Below is the email I sent the organizer yesterday afternoon. I took a note from Jay Smooth and decided to leave out the "r'" word. If you think there's a gentler way I could have gotten my point across, and want to share to help me in future situations, please let me know. I've been in this position many times in the past in plenty of places and will be in it again many times in the future. And I don't always have the choice to stay home with the cats when it's not an optional social space like fandom, but instead a place of employment, for instance. So here's what I sent her, sans greeting, quote of the comment, and closure:
I really like you and your sense of fun, but I'm totally squicked out by this kind of making fun of real groups of people and it's turning me off from wanting to be in this group. I know you don't mean any harm, but it still makes me uncomfortable, and I may not be the only one. If the group was more diverse, we might be able to develop a language for trading humor from our own ethnicities, but that does take a lot of time and comfort to develop, and may not be possible with a group that has a shifting membership. I don't think it's a good idea to assume that comfort level from the get go--it usually prevents a group from getting more diverse and restricts a group to a white majority--I've seen this happen a lot--and I don't think that's what you're aiming for at all. Does that make sense? There really is so much else we can joke about being human that doesn't hit on ethnicity or disability.
I suspect the line might have been an inside reference to some bad movie, but this email list is not restricted to the people who saw it, and we just might not all be comfortable with the line in or out of context if we did see it. I'd like to stay and know my comfort level mattered here. I wish there was a shorter way to say this. I decided to try talking about this rather than just fade away without trying, and hope you'll understand.
I took out of the email a part where I talked about my own identity and dealing with racism because the above was long enough, it's complicated, and I'm not sure it would have helped. Making an email too long can be burdensome and make it less well received. Yeah, I'm always the editor. I'll let you know whether or not I get a reply and whether it goes well or not.
Lastly, what is it with white people who aren't white supremacists saying stupid shit that achieves the same result white supremacists are aiming for? Because it makes it hard to tell the difference sometimes.
If your sf/f con has a mostly white attendance, you can rest assured a lot of shit like this has been going on; i.e., what I'm dealing with here applies to every sf/f con I know of or there would be more people of color attending, and this is the mild end on the racial harassment spectrum. And white people really need to expend a couple of brain cells and come up with humor that does not rely on a lazy application of stereotypes of people who are not exactly like them or just serves to remind people standing in the corner already just how marginal they are in the larger group. It's not all that different from what women of all colors have been asking men of all colors to do as part of curbing cultures of sexual harassment.
Addendum: And I just got my answer tonight:
You've been removed from Girls Geek Night Out (GGNO).
And she closed the group's membership to new members, leaving me a note:
Sorry - this group is closing down. The meetup.com world is just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO.
*watches the circling wagons of white women* OK then! There ya go.
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"The meetup.com world in just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO."
SERIOUSLY?
You are better off without them because that kind of reaction would have meant they would have imploded at some point.
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What I got from it was that if someone had sent it to me, I'd stop and ask myself what I'd said, I would apologize to the person who sent it, and then I'd do some serious thinking about why I felt the need to toss people under the bus just to earn some laughs.
No part of that email would make me write the following in response:
"The meetup.com world is just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO"
Yeah, uh, no.
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Of course you would be thoughtful and I wouldn't have to phrase things half as carefully to get you to think. Perhaps she will complain to the group about me and my email in a way that might get some other women in the group thinking in ways she doesn't expect. You never know.
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You did way the right thing and she's pathetic. I'm sorry, though.
I give you my kitten icon of cuteness as a good riddance to bad rubbish prize about them.
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I have kitties AND pizza. Those fuckers can't touch me! (-;
Thank you! I see your kitten of cutenesses and raise you a joey of jadorableness.
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here, have my silly persian icon.
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Lastly, what is it with white people who aren't white supremacists saying stupid shit that achieves the same result white supremacists are aiming for? Because it makes it hard to tell the difference sometimes.
Deniability.
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My recent record: one group I left (after having clearly explained why to the whole group), one incident I ignored and am still in that group but avoiding the individual responsible on the grounds that my fun > her education (as long as it stays fun for me).
Sometimes it's worth [action] and sometimes it's not. Look after yourself, bb!
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Is that a good approach, do you think? I did genuinely like her, but perhaps my statement of that didn't sound genuine? Not that I think there was any approach that would have achieved better results here.
And another question, if you have time for it--what do you mean by implosion? She seemed to be acting out rather than falling inward to me. Another person on my flist used the term, so I googled to see if it was a psychological term I'm missing, but I didn't find anything helpful.
Do you think anyone in the group you left got anything from your explanation, and did anyone reach out to support you? I hope the one you're avoiding does not get in your way with another incident.
Thank you, my friend. <3
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ILU, BB!
Do you think anyone in the group you left got anything from your explanation, and did anyone reach out to support you?
Oh, bb, that's a looong story and we'd need alcohol and chocolate, hee! The calling-out went better than most but that's because I'm unusually skilled (offline only) at explaining and demonstrating healthy relationship. The group were also unusual and, individually, mostly capable of responding appropriately to my calling out of their chosen-leader-in-whom-they-had-some-investment. One woman, who subsequently admitted she is a mildly self-punishing perfectionist, accused me of demanding perfection from the group leader (lol, no, I never set standards I couldn't aim for myself!). One of the group leader's two minions demonstrated hostile body language towards me and hugged his leader (which was sweet-ish but misplaced loyalty). I didn't return to the group (as I was attending to acquire skill not to educate people in group facilitation) and didn't ask for or receive a refund of my course fee (£48, which I could afford as a penalty for my foolishness in signing up for a group someone I trust had already subtly flagged to me AND that I'd been dubious about during my one previous encounter).
I hope the one you're avoiding does not get in your way with another incident.
I'm in a position to avoid finding out (which is why I'm still in). My problematic person is elderly, a product of mainstream prejudices, and not, afaik, a person of ill intent. I shall resort to my tried and tested strategy of out-living her!!1!! (Although I recently realised I'm now to old for this to apply in as many cases as I might like and I need a new strategy... ;-)
ILU, BB!
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Did you ever consider starting your own geeky group that is welcoming and inclusive of everyone?
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Oh, snap!
Heh. At least she didn't do the assholic personal attack on you. Or, not to you directly. I expect she did tell the others that you were ... not one of them. Aaaand, I wonder, briefly, if the group did actually close down- that would probably indicate that you weren't the only one who called her on her privilege.
But yes. You are well away from them. I do admire you for giving it a shot, though.
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here's a group she probably thinks is more your speed.
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Re: here's a group she probably thinks is more your speed.
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The experience I had involved someone "shushing" me during an RPG, and while I didn't bring up disability or ableism (and didn't even know disability was playing a role for me), I told the person that the shushing sound actually hurts my ears and that as I am an adult, I would appreciate and respond well to a verbal request to be quiet because of (whatever). The reaction I got was a complaint to the other players in the game that I was causing severe drama, and an announcement that he would no longer be running the game. Which he continued to run, just without me.
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I have too. And I'm beginning to think taking time to word things as gently as possible usually won't help. Nor do clear explanations matter because the offender is usually going to deny their words have any socially agreed upon meaning because their intent is all that matters to them. If you have trouble with their words or actions, it is your own fault, never theirs, and they will consider themselves the wounded party rather than recognize your hurt or basic humanity.
I'm sorry you got that from your gaming group. *hugs*
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I think there's also a tendency to just expect people to live with it. Like when discussions of Lovecraft's racism, Orson Scott Card's homophobia, or Dave Sim's misogyny come up and people start exerting pressure to shut down discussion and acting like it's not real.
I think I am not really clearly saying what I want, but a lot of people seem to react very badly to the idea that there's anything wrong with being an oppressive douche.
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Did I miss any part of the script?
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Let us print it out and set it on fire.
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i've been blessed to have not come across this type of behavior. maybe i'm a good judge of character because all my fandom geek girls are the best! but it's sad to know this kind of talk has remained after all this time and will remain.
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(And if she's not willing to listen to such a reasonable and gentle correction ... if she loves her racist jokes more than having friends, I can but hope she finds herself one day without anyone to tell them to.)
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I do think its good for you to get out. Hope you find another way. How about a kitty support/sharing group! You have Saki in a box!
xoxoxoxo hugs you love v
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(it also strikes me that there is no need to remove your name from the group if it is shutting down. So maybe it isn't shutting down at all)