Discomfort in All Women Mostly White SF&F/Nerd/Geek Spaces

[lavendertook]

It's not just Readercon and it's not only sexual harassment and the sexism that creates the environment for it. It's not just men in sf&f/nerd/geek spaces and the casual acceptance of sexual harassment that has made those spaces uncomfortable for me, and makes staying at home with the cats and talking with my friends online the better social option. Earlier this summer, I went to a local meet up for geek women, and "geek" here does seem to mean "fandom". It was a nice enough group, the organizer was fun, and I wanted to go again.

Then a couple of weeks ago, the organizer, who appears to be white (as did all the group at the meetup I attended, though there are a few women of color on the meetup list who weren't in attendance) made a racist and ableist comment meant to be a joke on the group mailing list/message board. And I've been debating whether to say something, which my hunch says will not be well received, or if I should just save the energy and walk away from the group, which would be the easier thing to do. I already skipped the last meet up.

I decided to give sociability and communicating about my discomfort with the racist/ableist comment a go, though I did focus more on the racist part of it. Below is the email I sent the organizer yesterday afternoon. I took a note from Jay Smooth and decided to leave out the "r'" word. If you think there's a gentler way I could have gotten my point across, and want to share to help me in future situations, please let me know. I've been in this position many times in the past in plenty of places and will be in it again many times in the future. And I don't always have the choice to stay home with the cats when it's not an optional social space like fandom, but instead a place of employment, for instance. So here's what I sent her, sans greeting, quote of the comment, and closure:

I really like you and your sense of fun, but I'm totally squicked out by this kind of making fun of real groups of people and it's turning me off from wanting to be in this group. I know you don't mean any harm, but it still makes me uncomfortable, and I may not be the only one. If the group was more diverse, we might be able to develop a language for trading humor from our own ethnicities, but that does take a lot of time and comfort to develop, and may not be possible with a group that has a shifting membership. I don't think it's a good idea to assume that comfort level from the get go--it usually prevents a group from getting more diverse and restricts a group to a white majority--I've seen this happen a lot--and I don't think that's what you're aiming for at all. Does that make sense? There really is so much else we can joke about being human that doesn't hit on ethnicity or disability.

I suspect the line might have been an inside reference to some bad movie, but this email list is not restricted to the people who saw it, and we just might not all be comfortable with the line in or out of context if we did see it. I'd like to stay and know my comfort level mattered here. I wish there was a shorter way to say this. I decided to try talking about this rather than just fade away without trying, and hope you'll understand.

I took out of the email a part where I talked about my own identity and dealing with racism because the above was long enough, it's complicated, and I'm not sure it would have helped. Making an email too long can be burdensome and make it less well received. Yeah, I'm always the editor. I'll let you know whether or not I get a reply and whether it goes well or not.

Lastly, what is it with white people who aren't white supremacists saying stupid shit that achieves the same result white supremacists are aiming for? Because it makes it hard to tell the difference sometimes.

If your sf/f con has a mostly white attendance, you can rest assured a lot of shit like this has been going on; i.e., what I'm dealing with here applies to every sf/f con I know of or there would be more people of color attending, and this is the mild end on the racial harassment spectrum. And white people really need to expend a couple of brain cells and come up with humor that does not rely on a lazy application of stereotypes of people who are not exactly like them or just serves to remind people standing in the corner already just how marginal they are in the larger group. It's not all that different from what women of all colors have been asking men of all colors to do as part of curbing cultures of sexual harassment.

Addendum: And I just got my answer tonight:

You've been removed from Girls Geek Night Out (GGNO).

And she closed the group's membership to new members, leaving me a note:

Sorry - this group is closing down. The meetup.com world is just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO.

*watches the circling wagons of white women* OK then! There ya go.

Comments

[ladyjax]

Wow, that's just...

"The meetup.com world in just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO."

SERIOUSLY?

You are better off without them because that kind of reaction would have meant they would have imploded at some point.

[trouble]

Well then. Wow. At least you're not wasting any more of your time or energy there. I'm so sorry. :(

[hederahelix]

You know, I read your email message (Which seemed excellently written and argued by the way).

What I got from it was that if someone had sent it to me, I'd stop and ask myself what I'd said, I would apologize to the person who sent it, and then I'd do some serious thinking about why I felt the need to toss people under the bus just to earn some laughs.

No part of that email would make me write the following in response:

"The meetup.com world is just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO"

Yeah, uh, no.

[crantz]

Wow.

You did way the right thing and she's pathetic. I'm sorry, though.

I give you my kitten icon of cuteness as a good riddance to bad rubbish prize about them.

[wordweaverlynn]

I'm appalled. Not surprised, but appalled.


Lastly, what is it with white people who aren't white supremacists saying stupid shit that achieves the same result white supremacists are aiming for? Because it makes it hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Deniability.

[spiralsheep]

Your email reads to me like the very careful opening of a negotiation. The GGNOorganiser's response does indicate a tendency towards implosion that's probably best kept away from your social circles. I understand your disappointment but at least you didn't put more effort over a longer period into that relationship. There will be other opportunities.

My recent record: one group I left (after having clearly explained why to the whole group), one incident I ignored and am still in that group but avoiding the individual responsible on the grounds that my fun > her education (as long as it stays fun for me).

Sometimes it's worth [action] and sometimes it's not. Look after yourself, bb!

[lbilover]

Given her response, if it can even be called a 'response', you are so much better off not being a part of that group. WTF kind of answer is 'The meetup.com world is just not ready for the awesomely awesome girls of GGNO'?????

Did you ever consider starting your own geeky group that is welcoming and inclusive of everyone?

[badgerbag]

Whoa! That's so heinous. I'm glad you spoke up.

[monkey5s]

You've been removed from Girls Geek Night Out (GGNO).

Oh, snap!

Heh. At least she didn't do the assholic personal attack on you. Or, not to you directly. I expect she did tell the others that you were ... not one of them. Aaaand, I wonder, briefly, if the group did actually close down- that would probably indicate that you weren't the only one who called her on her privilege.

But yes. You are well away from them. I do admire you for giving it a shot, though.

[mews1945]

Wow. That's really mind-numbing, that she just slammed the door in your face like that. Guess it makes it pretty clear where she and her "awesome" friends stand on the issue.

here's a group she probably thinks is more your speed.

[delux_vivens]

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Yup. "But I want a group just like me that I can say offensive things to without being called out!"

[baranduin.livejournal.com]

Well, at least you gave it a try. Good on you. Even though you got a response that was predictable, I expect it stung.

[lisaquestions.livejournal.com]

I have found that even the mildest, least confrontational request to take things like this into consideration leads to, well, what happened with you.

The experience I had involved someone "shushing" me during an RPG, and while I didn't bring up disability or ableism (and didn't even know disability was playing a role for me), I told the person that the shushing sound actually hurts my ears and that as I am an adult, I would appreciate and respond well to a verbal request to be quiet because of (whatever). The reaction I got was a complaint to the other players in the game that I was causing severe drama, and an announcement that he would no longer be running the game. Which he continued to run, just without me.

[romeny.livejournal.com]

You're to be commended for opening yourself up to new experiences. Sorry this one didn't go as you'd hoped but I expect those folks were beyond redemption anyway. They just didn't want to be called on the negative aspects of who they are or what they say.

[ladysnaps.livejournal.com]

good for you to stand up for your beliefs and what's right and what's wrong. i have a suspicion you may not have been the only one to say something because she was so quick to shut down the group. how cowardly of her to remove you from the group though. did she have anything other to say than that?

i've been blessed to have not come across this type of behavior. maybe i'm a good judge of character because all my fandom geek girls are the best! but it's sad to know this kind of talk has remained after all this time and will remain.

[addie71.livejournal.com]

Good for you for pointing that out to the organizer. Sadly, while I'm not surprised at her response, I think you did the right thing.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Well and awesomely done. I'm proud and delighted that you're my friend.

(And if she's not willing to listen to such a reasonable and gentle correction ... if she loves her racist jokes more than having friends, I can but hope she finds herself one day without anyone to tell them to.)

[verangel.livejournal.com]

I am glad you stood up and said something. As Ladysnaps pointed out, I doubt you were the only one who said something with the quick way this person shut you down/out, or else she is used to hearing it because well...its a mindset so doubtful it is the first time, and reacting by shutting out quickly. Its very immature and very ignorant. Good to find out now before you invest in any more of the silly polution that would have been building up.

I do think its good for you to get out. Hope you find another way. How about a kitty support/sharing group! You have Saki in a box!

xoxoxoxo hugs you love v

[aliensouldream.livejournal.com]

It's always right to care about this stuff and hard to confront closed minded people. You're brave to do it. Maybe you can form another group where people would know that who they are is always going to be respected. xxx

[brouhaha.livejournal.com]

Ugh. What an asshat. I admire you for calling her out though!

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

wow. Just wow. Her response alone makes me feel glad that you are not spending a moment more with that group. That really sucks big time. I'm so proud of you for writing that email and I strive to do the exact same thing if that comes up for me! ♥

[jan-u-wine.livejournal.com]

ummmm....totally perplexed at her response. I am wondering if she will carry on, under a different name, sans you and anyone else who took offense. But then....you wouldn't want to be part of *that* group.....

(it also strikes me that there is no need to remove your name from the group if it is shutting down. So maybe it isn't shutting down at all)