![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
I've been getting more down this week as my cold has lingered, but I finally had energy today to walk a couple of laps around the lake and finally have the focus to post. First off, I wanted to mention that after the long discussions of that scene that I mentioned bothered me in FotR in myFotR EE post, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lbilover happened to write a fic that totally fixes the scene and fills in the background to make sense of it way better than anything I was thinking of because she focused on the whole relationship, what Frodo and Aragorn mean to each other, and shows Frodo's will of steel unalloyed. You'll find this wonderfully gorgeous fic here. So I want to give my reviews of seeing the rest of the LotR EE's on the big screen in June. Forgive me if I transpose scenes from RotK to TTT and vice verse, since they're both in my head together, and feel free to let me know.
I went on my own to see TTT at the Bowie theater. The fun fact PJ had to impart in his preview is that Fran Walsh directed the scene when Smeagol tells Gollum to go away. I think PJ kind of botched it a little when he finished up, saying that this is all to say he wasn't directing everything. But no, shouldn't the point be that Fran DID direct some of it and she should get more credit and you're supposed to be promoting her, not bringing it back to you? Sigh.
The vistas were really more impressive in the way the camera took you swooping with it in the remastering. The one big drawback to the remastering, though, is hobbit stubble. Bad four o'clock shadow on all the hobbits but Frodo. But I guess it is worth the price to see the loving and meticulous stitching WETA workshop put into the costumes and etchings in the armor more clearly. I don't think I noticed before that the weave of Gandalf the White's grey mantle was the same weave as the Fellowship's cloaks from Lothlorien, which makes sense. I loved how distinctive the weave is in the new focus. The TTT EE is such a better movie than the theatrical version, I forget what a joy it is to see until I sit through it. RotK, both the theatrical and the EE, are a bigger spectacle, but I find the TTT EE is just a better narrative. I think the difference and improvement between the theatrical and EE versions is most marked with this film. FotR EE made a great film even better, but the TTT EE made a mediocre film into a really good one. They made very good use of this EE.
Where FotR's EE gave more depth to an already great film, the TTT makes sense of and fills out the mediocre theatrical version into a great film. It gives us more of Frodo and Sam's journey. I love the rope scene and the moment the hobbits share in that. I also love that it gave us a little more sense of the rigors of their journey in showing them taking miserable shelter in the storm. I do think one of the weaknesses of the films is that they do not quite capture the sense of how grueling the journey is for them and how isolated they feel as the text does. Some of that is due to interweaving the quest and battle narratives that the books keep separate. But I do think more of it could have been captured with more shifting camera angles showing us one relentless ridge to surmount after another, more slogging and falling, more angles from the hobbit's eye view. I think Sam's being physically worn down, too, is underplayed until they get to the foot of Mt. Doom in RotK.
I miss book Faramir, fully wise, wizard-schooled, and resistant to the ring's will, and such a welcome relief in Frodo and Sam's grueling journey, but the EE makes me love the addition of troubled Faramir as well because it fills out the developmental arc he goes through that the theatrical version did not, and links him in contrast with his brother much more strongly than Tolkien's text does. It makes him so much more than the Troubled Plot Obstacle he is in the theatrical version. I love the scene of the victory of Osgiliath showing the bond between the brothers, but that their alliance is only a partial one because there is only so far that good hearted Boromir will fight his father's injustice for Faramir's sake, and his capitulation to his father's power is what makes him prey to the ring's power, and that Faramir functions as the scapegoat in resisting. It puts Boromir's talk with Aragorn in Lothlorien in a different light. Good stuff.
But I still hate when Faramir says, "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins." WTF is this "we" stuff? It makes no sense! This is my biggest WTF spot in this film. Have any of you been able to make sense of it from what's shown? He has just come to understand what Frodo is going through and how Sam is supporting him, but what's new for the hobbits to understanding him? Projection much? It would make sense if he said it after he stated," then my life is forfeit", when they learn what his sacrifice means, but not before. And I guess this other WTF spot is just as big, and that's just before when Frodo's holding up the ring in front of the ring wraith and he can't sense it's there and fails to write a big message home, "Hey Boss!! Guess what's Round, Shiny, and Right Here in Osgiliath?!!!" I understand that Frodo is ringspelled worse and worse each time a ring wraith is near, and that his standing in front of the ring wraith and fell beast is a cool looking shot, but still WTF? I guess the good part is that these couple of moments can be easily edited out and still keep the narrative coherent.
I love that we get more of Pippin and Merry in drinking the Entdraught and then in partying in the store room with Treebeard watching. We don't get that much more of Rohan, but it's already beautifully developed, and Theoden, Eowyn, and Eomer couldn't be cooler. I could do without Eowyn being put through the humiliation of the bad cooking scene, but like that we get a little bit of Aragorn's background.
The wonderfulancalime8301 joined me for the RotK EE. Having determined that Snowden Square still has a superior sound system after seeing TTT in Bowie, we headed to Columbia, tried out a new pizza place that proved tasty, and headed to the theater accompanied by 3 hobbits, an elf, and a human. I brought along these fine folk:
And Cali brought this gentlehobbit:
The fun tidbit PJ imparted before RotK was that he learned as a kid that there was a charge of 6000 horses in I think it was the Battle of Waterloo, and he always wanted to know what a charge of 6000 horses looked like, so he told the animation department to make sure they depict 6000 horses in the Rohirrim's charge on the Pelannor Fields. And he'd been wanting to stage a big battle since he was 3. So there was one very satisfied 3 year old there. From the way they mucked up Frodo and Sam's integrity in the quest in favor of some very well done but a little overly long battles, I could tell that already.
As I said, I enjoy both the theatrical and EE of RotK for the spectacle, but I think the films really dropped the ball on the heart of the quest by diminishing Frodo's ability to judge character and trust in his Sam and his Sam's allowing it by trying to find the next bus back to the Shire. Frodo pities Gollum, but is never duped by him, and the strength of the whole concept of pity is destroyed by making Frodo Gollum's dupe. Additionally, I do think that at heart, one of the things they did most magnificently for a cinematic interpretation of the books in FotR is to personify the ring, and they totally dropped this crucial theme in the following movies. If the quest was going to be less grueling because of being interspersed with the battle books, then they needed to make what Frodo was struggling with more tangible, and it would have been so very easy with WETA's CGI geniuses to show Frodo slipping deeper and deeper into the ring world and fighting harder and harder against it as his will grows, not shrinks like a spent addict's. They could have also used a scene of Frodo preoccupied with an intense battle of wills with the ring for Gollum to have mislead Sam and separated them in the beginning of Shelob's lair's passages, instead of weakening the hobbits' bond like they did. I bet someone with animation skills could splice in such scenes, the ring pulsing as it whispers to Frodo, the Wheel of Fire glowing before Frodo's eyes (why did PJ forget show-not-tell here?), Frodo growing tall in his robes of white, and resplice parts of the quest portions to make this film into the film it should be.
The addition of the king's crown scene was lovely, but the crossroads scene just added to the weakened depiction of Frodo's will. The addition of the Houses of healing is lovely, but other than that, I don't think the EE adds much except length to RotK. The additions with the army of the Dead are good, but don't add much. I do like more of the partying in Rohan and the drinking game, but again, it doesn't add that much. The remastering allowed me to see some more effects with the dead in Dunharrow than I had noticed before.
Except for the stupid tying of Arwen's fate to the ring, the other parts of the plot are handled perfectly and beautifully. I really suspect the reducing of Arwen to a damsel in distress after giving her such a strong start in FotR that made her more like Luthien's heir is that the writing team listened to fan reactions that she was being Mary Sued. This is why I hate the Mary Sue charges already being thrown at the warrior wood elf woman they are scripting for The Hobbit. I like seeing women given more active roles in the story. Now if they could manage to stop whitewashing and allow people of color to play more roles than orcs, and with more than one POC in the Gondorian army, I'd be really pleased. Hobbits are described as brown and Tolkien is not specific about the skin shades of a lot of his peoples, so it would be nice if 21st century fanfic, which is what the films are, could do at least as well.
I see the EE of RotK as a missed opportunity for adding more substance, and of course I would have liked some indication that Sam as a ringbearer has at least a possibility of sailing and joining Frodo, but I would have been happier if they had used a way of separating the hobbits that did not diminish their strengths. At least the remastering does make it all prettier, and WETA's physical depiction of Middle earth is an unequaled achievement, so I'm glad I got to see it in greater clarity on the big screen. I just squee with a red pen--can't help it--it's still squee. (-:
lbilover happened to write a fic that totally fixes the scene and fills in the background to make sense of it way better than anything I was thinking of because she focused on the whole relationship, what Frodo and Aragorn mean to each other, and shows Frodo's will of steel unalloyed. You'll find this wonderfully gorgeous fic here. So I want to give my reviews of seeing the rest of the LotR EE's on the big screen in June. Forgive me if I transpose scenes from RotK to TTT and vice verse, since they're both in my head together, and feel free to let me know.I went on my own to see TTT at the Bowie theater. The fun fact PJ had to impart in his preview is that Fran Walsh directed the scene when Smeagol tells Gollum to go away. I think PJ kind of botched it a little when he finished up, saying that this is all to say he wasn't directing everything. But no, shouldn't the point be that Fran DID direct some of it and she should get more credit and you're supposed to be promoting her, not bringing it back to you? Sigh.
The vistas were really more impressive in the way the camera took you swooping with it in the remastering. The one big drawback to the remastering, though, is hobbit stubble. Bad four o'clock shadow on all the hobbits but Frodo. But I guess it is worth the price to see the loving and meticulous stitching WETA workshop put into the costumes and etchings in the armor more clearly. I don't think I noticed before that the weave of Gandalf the White's grey mantle was the same weave as the Fellowship's cloaks from Lothlorien, which makes sense. I loved how distinctive the weave is in the new focus. The TTT EE is such a better movie than the theatrical version, I forget what a joy it is to see until I sit through it. RotK, both the theatrical and the EE, are a bigger spectacle, but I find the TTT EE is just a better narrative. I think the difference and improvement between the theatrical and EE versions is most marked with this film. FotR EE made a great film even better, but the TTT EE made a mediocre film into a really good one. They made very good use of this EE.
Where FotR's EE gave more depth to an already great film, the TTT makes sense of and fills out the mediocre theatrical version into a great film. It gives us more of Frodo and Sam's journey. I love the rope scene and the moment the hobbits share in that. I also love that it gave us a little more sense of the rigors of their journey in showing them taking miserable shelter in the storm. I do think one of the weaknesses of the films is that they do not quite capture the sense of how grueling the journey is for them and how isolated they feel as the text does. Some of that is due to interweaving the quest and battle narratives that the books keep separate. But I do think more of it could have been captured with more shifting camera angles showing us one relentless ridge to surmount after another, more slogging and falling, more angles from the hobbit's eye view. I think Sam's being physically worn down, too, is underplayed until they get to the foot of Mt. Doom in RotK.
I miss book Faramir, fully wise, wizard-schooled, and resistant to the ring's will, and such a welcome relief in Frodo and Sam's grueling journey, but the EE makes me love the addition of troubled Faramir as well because it fills out the developmental arc he goes through that the theatrical version did not, and links him in contrast with his brother much more strongly than Tolkien's text does. It makes him so much more than the Troubled Plot Obstacle he is in the theatrical version. I love the scene of the victory of Osgiliath showing the bond between the brothers, but that their alliance is only a partial one because there is only so far that good hearted Boromir will fight his father's injustice for Faramir's sake, and his capitulation to his father's power is what makes him prey to the ring's power, and that Faramir functions as the scapegoat in resisting. It puts Boromir's talk with Aragorn in Lothlorien in a different light. Good stuff.
But I still hate when Faramir says, "I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins." WTF is this "we" stuff? It makes no sense! This is my biggest WTF spot in this film. Have any of you been able to make sense of it from what's shown? He has just come to understand what Frodo is going through and how Sam is supporting him, but what's new for the hobbits to understanding him? Projection much? It would make sense if he said it after he stated," then my life is forfeit", when they learn what his sacrifice means, but not before. And I guess this other WTF spot is just as big, and that's just before when Frodo's holding up the ring in front of the ring wraith and he can't sense it's there and fails to write a big message home, "Hey Boss!! Guess what's Round, Shiny, and Right Here in Osgiliath?!!!" I understand that Frodo is ringspelled worse and worse each time a ring wraith is near, and that his standing in front of the ring wraith and fell beast is a cool looking shot, but still WTF? I guess the good part is that these couple of moments can be easily edited out and still keep the narrative coherent.
I love that we get more of Pippin and Merry in drinking the Entdraught and then in partying in the store room with Treebeard watching. We don't get that much more of Rohan, but it's already beautifully developed, and Theoden, Eowyn, and Eomer couldn't be cooler. I could do without Eowyn being put through the humiliation of the bad cooking scene, but like that we get a little bit of Aragorn's background.
The wonderful
ancalime8301 joined me for the RotK EE. Having determined that Snowden Square still has a superior sound system after seeing TTT in Bowie, we headed to Columbia, tried out a new pizza place that proved tasty, and headed to the theater accompanied by 3 hobbits, an elf, and a human. I brought along these fine folk:And Cali brought this gentlehobbit:
The fun tidbit PJ imparted before RotK was that he learned as a kid that there was a charge of 6000 horses in I think it was the Battle of Waterloo, and he always wanted to know what a charge of 6000 horses looked like, so he told the animation department to make sure they depict 6000 horses in the Rohirrim's charge on the Pelannor Fields. And he'd been wanting to stage a big battle since he was 3. So there was one very satisfied 3 year old there. From the way they mucked up Frodo and Sam's integrity in the quest in favor of some very well done but a little overly long battles, I could tell that already.
As I said, I enjoy both the theatrical and EE of RotK for the spectacle, but I think the films really dropped the ball on the heart of the quest by diminishing Frodo's ability to judge character and trust in his Sam and his Sam's allowing it by trying to find the next bus back to the Shire. Frodo pities Gollum, but is never duped by him, and the strength of the whole concept of pity is destroyed by making Frodo Gollum's dupe. Additionally, I do think that at heart, one of the things they did most magnificently for a cinematic interpretation of the books in FotR is to personify the ring, and they totally dropped this crucial theme in the following movies. If the quest was going to be less grueling because of being interspersed with the battle books, then they needed to make what Frodo was struggling with more tangible, and it would have been so very easy with WETA's CGI geniuses to show Frodo slipping deeper and deeper into the ring world and fighting harder and harder against it as his will grows, not shrinks like a spent addict's. They could have also used a scene of Frodo preoccupied with an intense battle of wills with the ring for Gollum to have mislead Sam and separated them in the beginning of Shelob's lair's passages, instead of weakening the hobbits' bond like they did. I bet someone with animation skills could splice in such scenes, the ring pulsing as it whispers to Frodo, the Wheel of Fire glowing before Frodo's eyes (why did PJ forget show-not-tell here?), Frodo growing tall in his robes of white, and resplice parts of the quest portions to make this film into the film it should be.
The addition of the king's crown scene was lovely, but the crossroads scene just added to the weakened depiction of Frodo's will. The addition of the Houses of healing is lovely, but other than that, I don't think the EE adds much except length to RotK. The additions with the army of the Dead are good, but don't add much. I do like more of the partying in Rohan and the drinking game, but again, it doesn't add that much. The remastering allowed me to see some more effects with the dead in Dunharrow than I had noticed before.
Except for the stupid tying of Arwen's fate to the ring, the other parts of the plot are handled perfectly and beautifully. I really suspect the reducing of Arwen to a damsel in distress after giving her such a strong start in FotR that made her more like Luthien's heir is that the writing team listened to fan reactions that she was being Mary Sued. This is why I hate the Mary Sue charges already being thrown at the warrior wood elf woman they are scripting for The Hobbit. I like seeing women given more active roles in the story. Now if they could manage to stop whitewashing and allow people of color to play more roles than orcs, and with more than one POC in the Gondorian army, I'd be really pleased. Hobbits are described as brown and Tolkien is not specific about the skin shades of a lot of his peoples, so it would be nice if 21st century fanfic, which is what the films are, could do at least as well.
I see the EE of RotK as a missed opportunity for adding more substance, and of course I would have liked some indication that Sam as a ringbearer has at least a possibility of sailing and joining Frodo, but I would have been happier if they had used a way of separating the hobbits that did not diminish their strengths. At least the remastering does make it all prettier, and WETA's physical depiction of Middle earth is an unequaled achievement, so I'm glad I got to see it in greater clarity on the big screen. I just squee with a red pen--can't help it--it's still squee. (-:
Tags:
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
I'm not a fan of the easy throwing about of the term Mary Sue when dealing with narratives produced in a patriarchy, where the ability to imagine and depict power wielded by women is undermined to begin with. Pick on the Gary Stu's for a good few decades, then we can talk about the Mary Sues out there . . .
From:
no subject
Throughout the movie, he failed to show Frodo’s strong strength of character which I think he could have done with a little more care. I also agree with you that PJ doesn’t want to use persons of color as hobbits or dwarves and Tolkien specifically mentioned darker-skinned hobbits.
I really hope he doesn't put in a romance when there was none in The Hobbit.
From:
no subject
Interestingly enough, there was something going around awhile back about an ad for hobbits as extras for the new movie(s) coming up that was controversial, but it called for the physical characteristics of said hobbits and qualified their skin tone as having to be light-toned. I remember thinking that while I was short enough, *I* might not be light enough to qualify as light, considering I'm darker-skinned for a Caucasian, so way to go at discouraging people of color as extras even! D:
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
You know, I'm thinking about crafting an open letter to PJ and a petition to remind him that it is canon for hobbits to come in multiple skin shades and to please include people of color in group Shire scenes.
It would be awesome if the wood elf warrior woman they have created did not become a romantic object of a male. It would be even more awesome if they had more than one female wood elf, and they actually talked to each other so The Hobbit, unlike LotR, could pass the Bechdel Test. However, I would not mind at all a romance between the dwarves, or Bilbo and one of the dwarves. And I ship Bilbo/Gandalf, so that would be awesome. And I wanna pony. (-;
From:
no subject
Ohhh, the detail they put into those costumes! I know I missed so much of it.
"I think at last we understand each other, Frodo Baggins." makes NO SENSE. I always got the feeling that there was something cut from that scene. *grrrr*
Glad you enjoyed yourself!
From:
no subject
OK--just checking to see if I'm just possibly missing something. In the future fan edition of the films. that line is going to be edited out!!
Thank you! (-:
From:
no subject
I'm too tired to express my thoughts on the above in a coherent way, so I'm sorry! We should talk about this in person in the fall for sure! :)
From:
no subject
For me, the book interaction between Frodo and Faramir felt thrilling & I had the sense that they were both strong leaders. Frodo's conversation with this man who had an army at his back was cunning and clever. I think they each had a mutual respect. Faramir was insightful and wise and knew not to meddle in Frodo's affairs, even knowing the consequences to himself.
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
I just squee with a red pen--can't help it--it's still squee. (-: Well said!
From:
no subject
That said, in general I find TTT the hardest movie to watch (except that now I've been to NZ, I can squee about how I was at Edoras or the Emyn Muil and pick out the exact spots I stood!!) Parts of ROTK are excruciating as well- the 'Frodo sending Sam away' scene in particular. But mostly the numerous logical inconsistencies gnaw at me. How did Elrond get to Dunharrow so quickly? And then did he hand over the sword and promptly leave? Stuff like that. The sweeping grandeur of the scenes and the beauty of NZ and the intricacies of the costumes and Howard Shore's blissful score tend to make one gloss over these problems.
But what the movies get right, oh they get so right. So I suppose I forgive PJ for the most egregious errors!!! And he brought me to fandom, slash, and writing. On sum, I'm deeply in his debt!!!
Thanks again, Lavender!!!!
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
Ha ha ha! Astute. But I do love PJ. Sorry he couldn't have done better by some of the characters, that's all.
I resonated (almost literally) to what you wrote about Frodo's weakened portrayal in ROTK and I thought a lot of your suggestions for how story points could have been accomplished were very good. I do think the EE of ROTK is an improvement overall (exceptions: Crossroads poor, because makes no sense with what went before and what will follow, besides making Frodo less, yet again; lopping of emissary's head by Aragorn - Morgoth behaviour), but agree that it could have done so much more. Still, I watch the EE when I watch it at home, as I do all the films.