I'm not certain why so few people involved are seeing the antisemitism* going on in this thread, so I'm going to try to break down here what I saw and why it was disturbing to me. First of all, here is the passage in question that the commenter,
stefaneus, made antisemitic remarks about. It's from an essay by Jewish lesbian singer Alix Dobkin**:
This brings to mind an incident occurring twenty years ago in Europe. At a concert in Zurich I identified myself as Jewish, whereupon a small group of women got up and left the theater. Why? They didn't say, but we can guess.
My deal with myself was that if I agreed to tour Germany and Switzerland it would be on condition that I declare my Jewishness at every show. Otherwise I could not have endured setting foot on those killing fields. But I was as unprepared for the shockingly defensive reaction that statement would provoke in my audience as they were to hear it. Naively assuming that German Dykes were as used to discussing sensitive race issues as we USA veterans were, it never occurred to me how personally they would take this (seemingly) simple declaration. If I hadn't immediately calmed my audience with friendly assurances they would have shut down and shut me out, and by the time I reached Switzerland I understood that going public as a Jew required the following instant affirmations:
1) that I did not believe in God
2) that I did not necessarily support Israel's every action, and
3) that I did not blame any of them for the holocaust
These three disclaimers usually relaxed most of the crowd enough so that they could sit through my show without excessive distress. Passionate English and German post concert dialogues proved wrenchingly difficult, but they moved everyone forward, and we were all glad to have stuck with it.
The passage comes from this site that
delphyne_ linked to--and yes, I know the larger focus of that site is controversial, but I will not discuss any of those issues now in order to keep the focus on the particular issue I am addressing here. Now here is
stefaneus's comment upon the above passage:
Thank you for burning away my retinas by showing me an American lesbian who accuses German and Swiss lesbians of anti-Semitism because they are, understandably, afraid that someone will play the 'you-did-the-Holocaust' card even though, at that time, none of them were yet even of adult age. Seriously, thank you. And I didn't even got to the core of the article, yet.
(under breath) Stupid American (/under breath)
First of all, we don't have just any kind of American lesbian here, we have a Jewish American lesbian, and for some reason he elides that. If he drew attention to her Jewishness, it would be more clear his reaction was antisemitic, and I suspect that is why he elided it. I also suspect it's himself that he's trying to keep the clarity from, so he doesn't have to recognize this in himself because superficially he knows antisemitism is wrong. But he sure takes offense to Jewish needs to name our history. And that in itself is a form of antisemitism: He elides the specificity of our history and our existence in not making any distinction that this is a Jew, not just an American, who is going into a space that is very threatening-feeling for her for the little reason that 6 million people sharing her Jewish identity were killed there.
Playing "the 'you did the Holocaust' card.
Need I explain that there is a spot on the antisemitism bingo board for "you're playing the Holocaust card?" There is; it is that common an antisemitic attack. A couple of its cousins are the "race card" and the "gay card." To call a Jew's mentioning of the Holocaust a "card" trivializes our need to name the recent trauma in our history, the fact that most all of us, American Jews, as well as European Jews and Jews world-wide, have lost branches of our families in the Holocaust. Many Holocaust survivors are still alive today--we are not even a generation past direct, live, experience. To trivialize this real experience of loss and trauma for Jews IS antisemitism.
However, the thing here is that Dobkin was merely claiming that she was Jewish, a Jew standing on the ground where Jews are missing because they were killed off, and so the commenter is telling us that just mentioning she is a Jew is in itself playing the Holocaust card. He is saying that any mention of being Jewish is an accusation against the Germans and Swiss, and it is offensive to name herself there because it will remind them that their nation killed Jews--so just keep a don't tell policy in place so you don't make the Germans uncomfortable--good one
stefaneus. And thank goodness he can't speak for all the Germans today who don't share his defensive antisemitism.
The commenter states with great empathy, and identification which he explains in a subsequent comment, that the German and Swiss audience will "understandably" fear the terrible use of that almighty and mean little card thing, that card thing representing the person in the victimized position pointing out the unjustness of their victimization by that audience's home team (even though all she is doing here is stating she is Jewish). You know, I'm sorry, but on the guilt thing, the feeling bad about what your people unjustly did to another: decent people live with guilt and transform it, by owning it and using it to grow and make amends. It's not a bad thing--like Huey's thinking here in a Boondocks strip from a couple of days ago.
To be proud of your culture, you also have to own the terrible things it participated in. And not deny speech to those to whom the terrible things were done, but to listen and honor them, no matter how fucking tired you are of it already. Because you owe that--you live as you do because our relatives don't. You don't get to decide when we stop talking about it. And to begrudge that, is to re-victimize the survivors. As these women 20 years ago were doing by forcing Dobkin to placate them, and as this commenter did today in sharing in their defensive antisemitism.
This blaming the victim for the guilt you feel towards them, or having the nerve to remind you of that guilt--so not cool. And in this case, so antisemitic. But that's what this commenter is about here. I'm grateful to
delphyne_ for being a good ally and calling him on this.
Then in response to this thread, and subsequent discussion of it elsewhere, we have this lovely antisemitic post here from
azzy23:
I'm just going to throw this one out there, and you're welcome to unfriend me, or think I'm an antisemite or whatever, but here ya go...
If you ever pull the "You disagree with me! That makes you a Nazi/Anti-semitic" card in a debate in my blog, we're going to have an issue. I'm tired of this one, seriously. Sometimes, and hold on to your socks kids... sometimes Jewish people are incorrect. Sometimes Israel does things which are wrong (in a morals/ethics sense), and pointing out that you don't agree with their take on something does NOT make you a Nazi or an anti-semite, and I won't play that.
I fully agree with her that sometimes Jews are incorrect, and Israel does some really wrongful thingsshe said, soothing her audience, but deciding a Jew calling out antisemitic speech is playing a card is antisemitic to the max, as I've discussed above, but this time the card is in reference to the naming of antisemitic speech, which she is denying to Jews. What we have here in her post is a bigoted, defensive response dismissing a Jew's right to name her oppression. And her antisemitic post even encourages one of her posters to express their defensive racism and complain about ye old race card--hey, collect them all, kids. Yup, it spreads when left unchecked.
So that's the gardens we're weeding here, people. Call them on it when you see it--don't let it go unchecked--someone who can't speak up may be hurting from it.
In another post some time later, I'll get into some of the issues of contention on gender identity, rad feminism, and transgender politics that were the larger focus of the post this thread was a part of. But in this entry, I just want us to focus on the problem of the antisemitism, as expressed in the comments above.
Any questions? Thoughts?
*Oxford and American Heritage Dictionaries encourage the use of a hyphen, as in "anti-semitism", but I don't think it's necessary and am encouraging the language to change here--language evolution: it's a DIY thing. But don't try this on term papers, kids.
**I saw her in concert about 20 years ago.(-:
This brings to mind an incident occurring twenty years ago in Europe. At a concert in Zurich I identified myself as Jewish, whereupon a small group of women got up and left the theater. Why? They didn't say, but we can guess.
My deal with myself was that if I agreed to tour Germany and Switzerland it would be on condition that I declare my Jewishness at every show. Otherwise I could not have endured setting foot on those killing fields. But I was as unprepared for the shockingly defensive reaction that statement would provoke in my audience as they were to hear it. Naively assuming that German Dykes were as used to discussing sensitive race issues as we USA veterans were, it never occurred to me how personally they would take this (seemingly) simple declaration. If I hadn't immediately calmed my audience with friendly assurances they would have shut down and shut me out, and by the time I reached Switzerland I understood that going public as a Jew required the following instant affirmations:
1) that I did not believe in God
2) that I did not necessarily support Israel's every action, and
3) that I did not blame any of them for the holocaust
These three disclaimers usually relaxed most of the crowd enough so that they could sit through my show without excessive distress. Passionate English and German post concert dialogues proved wrenchingly difficult, but they moved everyone forward, and we were all glad to have stuck with it.
The passage comes from this site that
Thank you for burning away my retinas by showing me an American lesbian who accuses German and Swiss lesbians of anti-Semitism because they are, understandably, afraid that someone will play the 'you-did-the-Holocaust' card even though, at that time, none of them were yet even of adult age. Seriously, thank you. And I didn't even got to the core of the article, yet.
(under breath) Stupid American (/under breath)
First of all, we don't have just any kind of American lesbian here, we have a Jewish American lesbian, and for some reason he elides that. If he drew attention to her Jewishness, it would be more clear his reaction was antisemitic, and I suspect that is why he elided it. I also suspect it's himself that he's trying to keep the clarity from, so he doesn't have to recognize this in himself because superficially he knows antisemitism is wrong. But he sure takes offense to Jewish needs to name our history. And that in itself is a form of antisemitism: He elides the specificity of our history and our existence in not making any distinction that this is a Jew, not just an American, who is going into a space that is very threatening-feeling for her for the little reason that 6 million people sharing her Jewish identity were killed there.
Playing "the 'you did the Holocaust' card.
Need I explain that there is a spot on the antisemitism bingo board for "you're playing the Holocaust card?" There is; it is that common an antisemitic attack. A couple of its cousins are the "race card" and the "gay card." To call a Jew's mentioning of the Holocaust a "card" trivializes our need to name the recent trauma in our history, the fact that most all of us, American Jews, as well as European Jews and Jews world-wide, have lost branches of our families in the Holocaust. Many Holocaust survivors are still alive today--we are not even a generation past direct, live, experience. To trivialize this real experience of loss and trauma for Jews IS antisemitism.
However, the thing here is that Dobkin was merely claiming that she was Jewish, a Jew standing on the ground where Jews are missing because they were killed off, and so the commenter is telling us that just mentioning she is a Jew is in itself playing the Holocaust card. He is saying that any mention of being Jewish is an accusation against the Germans and Swiss, and it is offensive to name herself there because it will remind them that their nation killed Jews--so just keep a don't tell policy in place so you don't make the Germans uncomfortable--good one
The commenter states with great empathy, and identification which he explains in a subsequent comment, that the German and Swiss audience will "understandably" fear the terrible use of that almighty and mean little card thing, that card thing representing the person in the victimized position pointing out the unjustness of their victimization by that audience's home team (even though all she is doing here is stating she is Jewish). You know, I'm sorry, but on the guilt thing, the feeling bad about what your people unjustly did to another: decent people live with guilt and transform it, by owning it and using it to grow and make amends. It's not a bad thing--like Huey's thinking here in a Boondocks strip from a couple of days ago.
To be proud of your culture, you also have to own the terrible things it participated in. And not deny speech to those to whom the terrible things were done, but to listen and honor them, no matter how fucking tired you are of it already. Because you owe that--you live as you do because our relatives don't. You don't get to decide when we stop talking about it. And to begrudge that, is to re-victimize the survivors. As these women 20 years ago were doing by forcing Dobkin to placate them, and as this commenter did today in sharing in their defensive antisemitism.
This blaming the victim for the guilt you feel towards them, or having the nerve to remind you of that guilt--so not cool. And in this case, so antisemitic. But that's what this commenter is about here. I'm grateful to
Then in response to this thread, and subsequent discussion of it elsewhere, we have this lovely antisemitic post here from
I'm just going to throw this one out there, and you're welcome to unfriend me, or think I'm an antisemite or whatever, but here ya go...
If you ever pull the "You disagree with me! That makes you a Nazi/Anti-semitic" card in a debate in my blog, we're going to have an issue. I'm tired of this one, seriously. Sometimes, and hold on to your socks kids... sometimes Jewish people are incorrect. Sometimes Israel does things which are wrong (in a morals/ethics sense), and pointing out that you don't agree with their take on something does NOT make you a Nazi or an anti-semite, and I won't play that.
I fully agree with her that sometimes Jews are incorrect, and Israel does some really wrongful things
So that's the gardens we're weeding here, people. Call them on it when you see it--don't let it go unchecked--someone who can't speak up may be hurting from it.
In another post some time later, I'll get into some of the issues of contention on gender identity, rad feminism, and transgender politics that were the larger focus of the post this thread was a part of. But in this entry, I just want us to focus on the problem of the antisemitism, as expressed in the comments above.
Any questions? Thoughts?
*Oxford and American Heritage Dictionaries encourage the use of a hyphen, as in "anti-semitism", but I don't think it's necessary and am encouraging the language to change here--language evolution: it's a DIY thing. But don't try this on term papers, kids.
**I saw her in concert about 20 years ago.(-:
From:
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I wonder, these days, with all the changes in the library world, if the paper-bombers still plant this crap, and if the libraries still try to track it down and eliminate it.
Also, my (white, Christian) mother was enormously horrified when I told her about it- she knew soldiers who had been at the camps, liberating the few survivors, and dealing with the horrors left behind. Their lives were scarred at just seeing the aftermath- and yet there were people who were willing to claim it was faked? I didn't try to explain how awful people could be- she was well aware of it (and has her own prejudices that still catch me, sometimes).
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Thanks for posting this & taking the time/energy to go through it point by point.
Amazing to me, really that the Alix Dobkin quote ends with her discussing how agonizing & painful it was to have these kinds of discussions--"post concert dialogues proved wrenchingly difficult"--& then x number of years later here is the same discussion, the same antisemitism, the same defensiveness, the same exhaustion & pain . Bleh.
That whole post was just...fraught.
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Yeah, progress--it's slow in coming. That she felt she had to comfort her audience about her being Jewish and woo them to stay--just ugh--I don't know how she managed the patience--it makes me too angry just thinking about it.
And yeah on the fraughtness, but I don't want to get into the rest of that post in this entry--too complicated. It will take me a while, but I will post on the complicated gender and identity issues behind the conflicts going on there from my rabidly contructivist position and experience of attending woman-only space. Please come and talk on it then---or post about it and I will stop by.
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I friended you because I like reading what you write, so unless you object I'll keep you on my flist & continue reading your posts.
I'm not offended by being unfriended. If you read my posts, add me, but if you don't think you'll end up reading them it's cool to just leave it unfriended.
Posts are way more important to me than comments! I rarely comment & at a certain point I just got hugely uncomfortable with people commenting on my posts so I do-not-allow-ed. But trust me I read almost every post on my flist. I'm super-attached to my flist!
Anyway, keep on keepin on. :)
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Good, friending you back then.
Gotcha.
And backatcha!
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stefanus's comment about the fearful audience reminds me of the way that men claim to "live in fear" of feminists calling them on sexism. So far beyond annoying! So completely blind and illogical! And yet so common.
I'm looking forward to your take on the gender/trans/radfem politics!
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BTW, you always have the best journal titles.
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Oh, and I think I found a permalink for the Boondocks cartoon that you could use, since the syndicated feed URL will expire soon:
http://www.gocomics.com/boondocks/2007/12/09/
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And the link, too.(-:
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The ways of silencing and marginalizing are universal in the West?
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I agree that it was noticeable that Stefaneus left out the key fact, that Alix Dobkin is Jewish, and tried to pin the "stupid American" stereotype on her instead, ensuring that most casual readers would agree with him because who wants to be identified with the stupid American? The fact that he then characterised what Dobkin was doing as demanding an apology and "sick" when it was Dobkin who ended up having to apologise to her audiences and reassure them simply for mentioning that she was Jewish was beyond offensive.
You don't get to decide when we stop talking about it. And to begrudge that, is to re-victimize the survivors. As these women 20 years ago were doing by forcing Dobkin to placate them, and as this commenter did today in sharing in their defensive antisemitism.
Exactly. Exactly. The defensiveness perpetuates the victimisation. It's only by giving survivors and those who have been wronged the space to express what they need to express (including for example announcing their Jewishness to German or Swiss audiences) that any of us can truly move on and start to mend the past. It doesn't always happen as easily as I've said it there but it's got to be what we work towards.
As for Azzy claiming that charges of anti-semitism arise because people simply disagree with one another, is she stupid? Sorry, but if she thinks I said that Stefaneus was being anti-semitic on that thread because he disagreed with me she either can't read properly or has some anti-semitism of her own to deal with. The fact that she brought up Israel apropos of nothing makes me think it's probably the latter.
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I don't know how you found this post, but it's good to see you. (-:
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Yeah, there's as much antisemitism among some leftists, often using Israel as the excuse, as there is on the right.
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I said elsewhere that I trust delphyne's instincts as I would my own, and if her 'spidey senses' go off for whatever reason, then they should not be dismissed. Regarding the band in question, they have deliberately ambiguous lyrics, and the 'second' interpretation is always NOT PRETTY. So a bit of a red flag for me.
LT, if you do a trans post, it is likely that myself and the others who were shouted down on the other thread may participate. Weekends may be best for me (although, I do have to work this weekend as well). We were greatly outnumbered, so hardly a balanced environment for 'discussion' as was billed.
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Then again maybe his family were part of the half a million Sudeten Germans who joined the Nazi party at the same time in which case we can see exactly where he is coming from.
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The thing is, that's what all the head banger bands are about, and rammstein is just one of them--every violent image possible, and that's going to include Nazi's to appeal to angry young men. It's point is to shock--playing with violence and sexuality as violence in pretty typical ways to appeal to teen boys and those who are stuck there--that's what makes money. Pop culture tends to be sick that way---it's why I haven't bothered to set up my TV here. I just don't see the info on this band either way as conclusive, but I'll keep both your warnings in mind.
The billing was a huge problem there--language that would have been rude on a transgender celebration and support post (which was needed for her flist first and handled separately from this discussion), was not rude when discussing concepts of gender identity, and rad fems were expressly asked to post there when ownership of the terms was predetermined to exclude them. It wasn't a level playing field, but still both rad fems and transfolk got hurt--and only patriarchy benefits from that. And that's as far as I want to get into that in this post. I'll probably post on this in bits and pieces over time--just made another post that I guess is an opening salvo on the subject. I'll look forward to your thoughts whenever you find the time. (-:
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I just don't care that much who he is, really. I just want more people to be aware what antisemitism is when they see it and call it out, like you did. Then we don't have to worry whether someone's an actual Nazi or not because they'll have no power.
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And years later, I think I would be a lot more cautious having those discussions. I don't think my actual opinions have shifted that much; if I think about it I'm still basically on the same page as the people who write for Tikkun and the like. But I'm more conscious of being an outsider, and being in a glass house, than I was before.
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But wow, you had someone pro-Sharon on a leftist board? My dad was a socialist leftist (US-style) to the end, but he was much more hawkish in support of Israel than my mom and me, and even he wasn't pro-Sharon. I bet those fights went on and on. (-:
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But yeah, as I mull over this stuff now I think a lot of it is appropriation. And possibly, for those of us in white settler states, a way of coping with our own collective guilt. As I've learned more about the lives of Aboriginal people in Canada I've come to realise that we've got some pretty huge motes in our eyes with regard to colonial violence.
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the ways in which anti-semitic speech is often grounded in denying Jews the right to name their own oppression.
That sums it up perfectly.
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Good point on coping through projection. Oh yes, and on our side of the border as well, of course.
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Yes YES a thousand times yes.
Living in No. Cal. taught me that the South does not hold the whole bag, not by a long shot. And it's just stunning when someone who professes love for all mankind tags on the "except for Jews who are to blame for all our current problems".
Thanks for pointing me to this post. And thanks for making it.
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Ahahahaha! We'd always joke about people saying that in my family, but did you really hear/read someone say that?
You're welcome. Thanks for stopping by.
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Yea, my BFF was raised by total and complete hippies- as in grew up in a commune, her mother still grows pot in her yard, etc. And her family is so Peace Love and Understanding it makes my nose bleed. But ask her mother about modern politics, and she's totally cool with saying anti-semitic shit like "well, you know the Jews just need to get over themselves and then the Middle East would have peace."
Okay!
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That's really . . . loving and understanding. Like a brick in your face. People are amazing. (-;
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